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MilitantGraham
10-07-2008, 11:24 AM
I'm a truck mechanic for a main dealer and hold an LGV C+E licence.
Part of the job involves collecting and delivering customers vehicles.
We have recently started servicing a fleet of buses.
I questioned whether I could drive a PCV with a LGV licence and was told that as we were not carrying passengers we could.
I am aware there is an exemption to allow PCV licence holders to drive a recovery vehicle without holding an LGV licence as long as it is under 12 tons and being used to recover a bus.
Is there really an exemption to allow an LGV licence holder to drive a PCV from the bus depot to the dealer and back for servicing ?

Flyingscot
22-07-2008, 01:02 AM
I'm a truck mechanic for a main dealer and hold an LGV C+E licence.
Part of the job involves collecting and delivering customers vehicles.
We have recently started servicing a fleet of buses.
I questioned whether I could drive a PCV with a LGV licence and was told that as we were not carrying passengers we could.
I am aware there is an exemption to allow PCV licence holders to drive a recovery vehicle without holding an LGV licence as long as it is under 12 tons and being used to recover a bus.
Is there really an exemption to allow an LGV licence holder to drive a PCV from the bus depot to the dealer and back for servicing ?

There is something but the categories are different and indeed a bus can be a bit different from a truck as a lot have the wheels much further back from the driver than a car or truck.

Best I found was this on a car
Holders of a full category B (car) driving licence may drive any of the vehicles listed below:

a passenger carrying vehicle manufactured more than 30 years before the date when it is driven and not used for hire or reward or for the carriage of more than 8 passengers
a minibus with up to 16 passenger seats provided the following conditions are met:

i. the vehicle is used for social purposes by a non-commercial body but not for hire or reward
ii. the driver is aged 21 iii. the driver has held a car (category B) licence for at least 2 years
iv. the driver is providing the service on a voluntary basis
v. the minibus maximum weight is not more than 3.5 tonnes or 4.25 tonnes including any specialist equipment for the carriage of disabled passengers
vi. if the driver is aged 70 or over, is able to meet the health standards for driving a D1 vehicle
When driving a minibus under these conditions you may not receive any payment or consideration for doing so other than out of pocket expenses or tow any size trailer; you may only drive minibuses in this country. Drivers aged 70 or over will need to make a special application, which involves meeting higher medical standards.
Holders of a full category D (PCV) driving licence can also drive a passenger carrying recovery vehicle. This is defined as a vehicle (not being an articulated goods vehicle combination) which:

has an unladen weight not exceeding 10.2 tonnes
is being operated by the holder of a public service vehicle (PSV) operator's licence and, is being used for the purpose of:

i. proceeding to, or returning from, a place where assistance is to be, or has been, given to a damaged or disabled passenger-carrying vehicle
ii. giving assistance to or moving a disabled passenger-carrying vehicle or moving a damaged vehicle

Masked Marauder
22-07-2008, 01:37 PM
I think you can drive a bus on your licence as long as it is not for hire or reward by carrying passengers, or with no passengers. I used to occasionally drive a double decker to drop staff off, the bus was provided free so was outside the PSV rules. It may have changed since then though.

Arryace
22-07-2008, 03:55 PM
i think the term is 'not employed in the carrying of passengers' as in the vehicle not the driver

i know at our local Volvo truck and bus they drive both and im certain they dont hold PCV licences

queenjane
22-07-2008, 09:44 PM
I also suspect there is an issue with the actual licence on the bus concerned?

''Hackney'', and operators licences?

whereas a 'preserved' bus may not have a licence entitling for Hire and reward?


all this 'definition' stuff really does seem to be a minefield?

For example, an 'artic' tractor unit, is essentially unable to carry any form of ''goods', on its own.......since many fall into a weight bracket of around 5 or 6 tonnes, they might well be deemed to fall into, at least, the C1 category..[the fact that they can 'haul' a trailer and have a plated train weight of 44 tonnes is not the issue, perhaps??]......I wonder if anyone would be brave enough to drive one on an [older] car licence????
[ on the same basis as an 'out of category' licence driving a bus?], mounting a challenge in court?

LB
28-07-2008, 12:05 AM
ISTR that cat B Licence (for tests passed on or after 1st January 1997):You can drive motor vehicles with a MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) not exceeding 3500kg having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg so you could drive an Artic Tractor unit on a B as its not that heavy? anyone?

LB
28-07-2008, 12:28 AM
I always find all the categorys confusing so heres a handy guide I ripped off a website that others may find useful regarding LGV's

C1 (7 1/2 Tonner)

N.B If You Are Over 21 You Can Go Straight To Category C

Who Needs To Take The Category C1 Test?
Anyone who passed their car driving test after 1st January 1997 is NOT entitled to drive a vehicle with an MAM that exceeds 3500kgs.
To drive up to 7500kgs MAM you need to take a practical driving test, you must be over 18 years of age, and already have your car licence.

----------

Category C (Rigid - Old Style Class 2)

Anyone who passed their car driving test before 1st January 1997 and wants to drive a vehicle over 7500kgs, (7 1/2 tonner.)

Anyone who passed their car driving test after 1st January 1997 and wants to drive a vehicle over 3500ks and is over 21 years of age.

--------------
Category C + E (Artic - Old Class 1)


Who Needs To Take A Category C + E Test?
Anyone who wishes to drive a truck and trailer combination.

What Do I Have To Do To Take A Test?
You need to have passed your category C test, and received your licence back from the DVLA after passing your category C test with category C + E provisional entitlement on it.

Dr M
28-07-2008, 12:38 AM
ISTR that cat B Licence (for tests passed on or after 1st January 1997):You can drive motor vehicles with a MAM (Maximum Authorised Mass) not exceeding 3500kg having not more than 8 passenger seats with a trailer up to 750kg so you could drive an Artic Tractor unit on a B as its not that heavy? anyone?

No to the Tractor Unit. Remember the bit that says "Inteded or adapted". The tractor unit is intended to tow a trailer that is semi imposed on the tractor unit, and with a max weight of 44 tons.
You may see American type rigs on the roads, most notably Chris Eubank has one. They are adapted so that they can't tow a trailer, and certified as such by VOSA.

LB
28-07-2008, 12:54 AM
No to the Tractor Unit. Remember the bit that says "Inteded or adapted". The tractor unit is intended to tow a trailer that is semi imposed on the tractor unit, and with a max weight of 44 tons.
You may see American type rigs on the roads, most notably Chris Eubank has one. They are adapted so that they can't tow a trailer, and certified as such by VOSA.

Thanks DrM - It was infact the Eubank one I was thinking of in my example - It now becomes more clear to me regarding intended or adapted - I still find anything regarding HGV's a minefield - can't they reform the law on the whole lot and make it clearer?

oldcodger
28-07-2008, 12:20 PM
can't they reform the law on the whole lot and make it clearer?If previous experience is any guide then a reform of the law would make things worse not better.

berkshirelad
28-07-2008, 12:31 PM
can't they reform the law on the whole lot and make it clearer?

My understanding is that the last reform was to "harmonise" our legislation with that of the rest of the EU...

Any further reform would need to come form Brussels.

queenjane
28-07-2008, 01:00 PM
I always find all the categorys confusing so heres a handy guide I ripped off a website that others may find useful regarding LGV's

C1 (7 1/2 Tonner)

N.B If You Are Over 21 You Can Go Straight To Category C

Who Needs To Take The Category C1 Test?
Anyone who passed their car driving test after 1st January 1997 is NOT entitled to drive a vehicle with an MAM that exceeds 3500kgs.
To drive up to 7500kgs MAM you need to take a practical driving test, you must be over 18 years of age, and already have your car licence.

----------

Category C (Rigid - Old Style Class 2) [.....no.....it is both rigid, two axle, and rigid, multi-axle goods vehicles......so also combines the old HGV class 3.]

Anyone who passed their car driving test before 1st January 1997 and wants to drive a vehicle over 7500kgs, (7 1/2 tonner.)

Anyone who passed their car driving test after 1st January 1997 and wants to drive a vehicle over 3500ks and is over 21 years of age.

--------------
Category C + E (Artic - Old Class 1) [again,not so.....combines the old artic class 1, with the previously untested wagon and trailer/drag..thereby bringing the UK into line with the continent, where such rigs were more coomonly used]


Who Needs To Take A Category C + E Test?
Anyone who wishes to drive a truck and trailer combination.

What Do I Have To Do To Take A Test?
You need to have passed your category C test, and received your licence back from the DVLA after passing your category C test with category C + E provisional entitlement on it.

uhoh

Arryace
28-07-2008, 08:19 PM
so now all those catagories are clear why not throw in some restriction codes



[again,not so.....combines the old artic class 1, with the previously untested wagon and trailer/drag..thereby bringing the UK into line with the continent, where such rigs were more coomonly used]
well almost.....throw a restriction 102 into your C+E catagory and this limits you to wagon and drag only, many eastern european drivers come to the UK with this restriction and attempt to drive artics.
hardly what you would call 'bringing into line'

MilitantGraham
29-07-2008, 02:11 AM
Thanks for the replies even though no one can quote the actual rule I'm looking for.
I've already searched the DVLA site and was aware of the exemptions for older buses. These are brand new buses we are dealing with working on the Worcester Park & Ride scheme.

Regarding driving a tractor unit on a pre '97 car licence.
A six wheel tractor unit would typically weigh about 7 tons, but have a Gross Vehicle Weight of 22 - 26 tonnes and a Gross Train Weight of 44 tonnes.
If you wanted to drive it on a cat B licence, you would first need to get it re-plated as 7500kg GVW. I think you would be OK to tow up to 3500kg with it, but as tri-axle trailers also weigh about 7 tonnes empty you could never use the fifth wheel coupling.

queenjane
29-07-2008, 11:51 AM
Regarding driving a tractor unit on a pre '97 car licence.
A six wheel tractor unit would typically weigh about 7 tons, but have a Gross Vehicle Weight of 22 - 26 tonnes and a Gross Train Weight of 44 tonnes.
If you wanted to drive it on a cat B licence, you would first need to get it re-plated as 7500kg GVW. I think you would be OK to tow up to 3500kg with it, but as tri-axle trailers also weigh about 7 tonnes empty you could never use the fifth wheel coupling.

it WAS just a left-field curver thrown in to hilite how confusing these regulations are.....

Digby
29-07-2008, 03:25 PM
it WAS just a left-field curver thrown in to hilite how confusing these regulations are.....

And here is another one then.:)



The downplating arrangements are NOT intended as a way for an operator to avoid any legal responsibilities or obligations. For downplating vehicles to 7.5 and 3.5 tonnes GVW, or lower, it is STILL necessary to carry out physical alterations to the vehicle. The requirements for vocational (HGV) driving licences, operator licence and drivers hours (tachographs) are based on the design weight of the vehicle. Downplating as described here does not involve any changes to the design weights. In cases where such alterations are required, operators should contact the original vehicle manufacturer or specialist convertor. Unfortunately, VI Technical Services or Test Stations cannot advise operators on individual options for vehicle downplating. For specific advice on downplating an individual vehicle operators should contact their dealer or vehicle manufacturer. However, VITS can provide information on general downplating procedures.

MilitantGraham
30-07-2008, 01:30 AM
Interesting quote, Digby, where did you get it ?
I had heard stories from the past of owners having to remove some of the fifth wheel bolts to downplate a tractor unit, but I thought that was all over and it was just a paperwork exercise now.

This part is a bit more worrying though.


The requirements for vocational (HGV) driving licences, operator licence and drivers hours (tachographs) are based on the design weight of the vehicle.

I've got a friend with a cat C1 (7.5t) licence running a 12t lorry downplated to 7.5t.
It looks like he may have been driving illegally for several years.

Digby
30-07-2008, 01:29 PM
The information was lifted from Commercial Motor who produced a wall chart.


Commercial Motor would like to thank the Vehicle Inspectorate Technical Services Branch at Swansea for all their help and advice in the production of this wallchart.

MilitantGraham
26-12-2009, 12:20 PM
If anyone's interested in an update on this, I now work as a bus mechanic and still only hold a C+E (HGV/LGV) licence, not a D (PSV/PCV).
We've got our own examiners working directly for the company. I had to go out for an assesment when I started as company policy before I was allowed to even drive a bus in the yard, but I didn't have to take a test.
They have confirmed that I can drive a bus on the road without passengers on the licence I currently hold. I still haven't seen it in writing, but I trust my manager to go by the rules more than I did at the dealership.

GDC
30-12-2009, 10:28 PM
Makes sense as there are no fare paying passengers.

channa
31-12-2009, 11:15 AM
When I rented trucks, back in 1999 I was told I needed a class 2 HGV. to drive tractor units because of all this weight business, thankfully only let loose in the yard..once had a go with a fully blown artic though reversing it complete with trailer.:nods:( bloody big things) I must admit afterwards I had total respect for those that wrangle with them on a daily basis.

Channa

queenjane
31-12-2009, 04:16 PM
When I rented trucks, back in 1999 I was told I needed a class 2 HGV. to drive tractor units because of all this weight business, thankfully only let loose in the yard..once had a go with a fully blown artic though reversing it complete with trailer.:agree:( bloody big things) I must admit afterwards I had total respect for those that wrangle with them on a daily basis.



to be fair...and I am not a great respecter of lorry driver skills.....see too many cowboy antics for that...but......the real manoeuvering skills to my mind, in teh LGV world [wots this class 2?]....lie with the drivers of thos eMilk [Marque?] tanks that go round the farms.......lugging a 4 wheel trailers behind....these trailers have a turntable drawbar, ie they steer, like a 4 wheeled vehicle.

no problems going forwards...but I don't think there are very many working drivers witin the UK who can quickly and safely reverse these trailers.....excepting the milkmarque guys...

anyone with a half-baked idea of how to reverse a trailer with rigid axles can reverse an artic....the principles are the same.

in fact,[ apologies for pricked egos].....teh artic trailer is easier to reverse than a normal, rigid-axle trailer...due to the slowness of the artic trailer to turn........smaller trailers being much harder to manoeuver than big ones.


what daunts most people....[which soon goes with a bit of practice.....].....is simply the sheer size or bulk of artics.................in many ways, though, in the vehicle business, size does not matter.......what matters is....how much can you, the driver, see??


it is really about angles of visibility with things like trailers...especially artics, as the back end is so far away.....it's nice to actually see where you are going? and for the non-LGV drivers reading......proper lorry drivers dont like reversing round corners if they can avoid it....better to do all the steering and positioning, going forwards...if at all possible [use the space, etc].....then reverse in a nice straight line.


but stick an artic driver, in a MilkMarque tank-trailer combo.....and they'll soon be lost trying to reverse those! Don't believe me? sit and work it out....trailer front axle, is on a turntable linked to drawbar.....and steers. Which way does your steering wheel need to turn first???...Not the same way as in an artic, for sure!

channa
31-12-2009, 09:00 PM
not exactly sure of your point QJ.

However I remember once escorting a driver to a place with a 26 ft tandem axle, when we arrived the driver was asked to reverse into a loading bay....after a few choice words grumbles and general moaning my accomplice obliged.

First part of the manouver like a mad man (sure it was rage !!!) then approaching the loading bay reversed the trailer with literrally a inch and a half from the loading bay.

Me being me said foc me how did you do that ?

He started mentioning summat about mirrors of the adjourning combination being an indicator of when to stop and then proceeded to tell me what a twat I was etc ...etc and a wry smile..

Barry was actuallty a real character, reading fiesta magazine and munching a sandwich eeek !! at lunchtime.

Whether he was competent on the open road others are a better judge, but what I do know is come loading bay time pent up anger aside a bit of a wizard that a young lad like me could learn summat.

Happy days

Channa

queenjane
31-12-2009, 11:50 PM
not exactly sure of your point QJ.


oh...nowt much.....only the point that artic drivers only fancy themselves as kings of the road..........


happy New Year........

andyo
06-01-2010, 10:17 PM
No to the Tractor Unit. Remember the bit that says "Inteded or adapted". The tractor unit is intended to tow a trailer that is semi imposed on the tractor unit, and with a max weight of 44 tons.
You may see American type rigs on the roads, most notably Chris Eubank has one. They are adapted so that they can't tow a trailer, and certified as such by VOSA.

I thought the reason we don't see american style bonneted trucks over here was to do with the length restrictions.

In america only the length of the trailer is limited, whereas in the uk, the length of the tractor/trailer combined is restricted. Hence with a bonneted truck you're losing capacity, while a forward control truck will make full use of the length allowance.

dodgy
06-01-2010, 10:43 PM
oh...nowt much.....only the point that artic drivers only fancy themselves as kings of the road..........


happy New Year........

:mad: well i am a proffesional driver, drove for 27 years, drove wagon and drag, artics, low loaders, extendable 62 foot trailers, now if you want something hard to drive and manouver, 2005 i took a reacter from hull to windscale .... 74 foot long 142 tonnes... now that took some moving...and no i didnt think i was king of the road... oh but got paid like one :nods::nods:

channa
06-01-2010, 11:00 PM
:mad: well i am a proffesional driver, drove for 27 years, drove wagon and drag, artics, low loaders, extendable 62 foot trailers, now if you want something hard to drive and manouver, 2005 i took a reacter from hull to windscale .... 74 foot long 142 tonnes... now that took some moving...and no i didnt think i was king of the road... oh but got paid like one :nods::nods:
Well you have my vote, having been let loose in a yard with a tractor unit and trailer, that was flippin hard enough!!

BTW our QJ actually makes a lot of sense in the grander scale, Lets just say his methods are at times baffling until you understand his Psych and it took me a while.:agree:But in the grand scale he not speaketh with fork toungue !!!

Back to Windscale job, How long did it take ? ...What goes through your mind? ...did you have the radio on ?

With adverse loads do you experience idiots despite back in those days police escort ?

What do you feel as a professional driver is the keypoints of a successful drive?

I will never get to do STGO ? now too old and expensive but I have often wondered about what goes through drivers minds of seriously abnormal loads.

BTW at 142 Tonnes I think you have set a new record here !!!

Channa

dodgy
07-01-2010, 05:47 PM
Well you have my vote, having been let loose in a yard with a tractor unit and trailer, that was flippin hard enough!!

BTW our QJ actually makes a lot of sense in the grander scale, Lets just say his methods are at times baffling until you understand his Psych and it took me a while.:agree:But in the grand scale he not speaketh with fork toungue !!!

Back to Windscale job, How long did it take ? ...What goes through your mind? ...did you have the radio on ?

With adverse loads do you experience idiots despite back in those days police escort ?


What do you feel as a professional driver is the keypoints of a successful drive?

I will never get to do STGO ? now too old and expensive but I have often wondered about what goes through drivers minds of seriously abnormal loads.

BTW at 142 Tonnes I think you have set a new record here !!!

Channa

it took somewhere in the region of 17 hours as we had to stick to motorways, hardest and longest part was on the a roads waiting for bt to pull phone lines down and the local councils removing street lights ect ect, as for a radio ... no ... we had two way radios that we used to guide us round corners ect ect, and as for idiots... well yeah every road has them and when they see something so big they just want to get round you ??...... and what goes through your mind, good question ... an honest reply... nothing realy out of the ordinary yeah i know its a big load but you have to drive to the best of your abilities just like i do day in day out, when pulling such a load you have to think 20 cars in front instead of ten but you read the road pretty much the same, i dont think in a job like mine you can get nervous other wise you put others at risk and when the day comes that i put others at risk thats the time to hang my keys up.

channa
07-01-2010, 06:15 PM
it took somewhere in the region of 17 hours as we had to stick to motorways, hardest and longest part was on the a roads waiting for bt to pull phone lines down and the local councils removing street lights ect ect, as for a radio ... no ... we had two way radios that we used to guide us round corners ect ect, and as for idiots... well yeah every road has them and when they see something so big they just want to get round you ??...... and what goes through your mind, good question ... an honest reply... nothing realy out of the ordinary yeah i know its a big load but you have to drive to the best of your abilities just like i do day in day out, when pulling such a load you have to think 20 cars in front instead of ten but you read the road pretty much the same, i dont think in a job like mine you can get nervous other wise you put others at risk and when the day comes that i put others at risk thats the time to hang my keys up.

Top answer, I reckon even at working at 10 cars in front you are 9 ahead of typical joe.

I never realised but makes sense, a typical abnormal load requires removal of street furniture and telephone lines etc.....fascinating stuff , thank you for sharing.

Channa

KEVJAM
30-10-2013, 10:26 PM
I passed my test June 1980 in a manual car can I drive a 7.5 Ton truck without takeing another driving test. :confused:

queenjane
30-10-2013, 10:29 PM
Check your licence, see if it has category C1 listed as a 'full' licence?


Usually any person passing the cat B test prior to January 1997 automatically received D1 and C1 categories too.