A Question Of Ownership...

[Puff The Magic Wagon!]

Company buys new bike as reward for employee

Due to creditworthiness of company (new) it is bought under the name/credit of a director.

Due to insurance laws, it has to be registered in the name and insured in the name of the person riding/using/"keeping" the bike - the employee


Now for whatever reasons, the relationship between the company and the employee has broken down - he was sacked.

Employee does not wish to return the bike claiming that

He is the legal owner of the bike as it is registered in his name.

Now the V5 states that he is the legal keeper but the receipt for the bike was made out in the director's name. The payments are made via the company of which he is a director. There is no doubt that the company/director can prove ownership although there is no paperwork to state that the employee was using a company vehicle or one got on the company's behalf for him.

This (ex) employee is a bit of a dimlo as he has written to us informing us that he will not be returning the bike & this is what he has planned as "insurance" against getting the tin tack.

He has also stated that if the company "lift" the bike, then he will report it stolen - which I guess would have the effect of a) grief/paperwork from the police and b) is potentially an attempted fraud as the "keeper" of the bike would be attempting to benefit from the "loss"??

Is this enough for an "intention to deprive"?? Or does it still remain a civil matter?



The company would prefer to have this resolved ASAP because of loss of amenity etc. The employee was sacked for gross misconduct as well as being useless at his job.

Any advice/pointers gratefully received & yes lessons have been learnt by the directors...

email as per profile or PM or on here :D

[XDC]

Company buys new bike as reward for employee

Due to creditworthiness of company (new) it is bought under the name/credit of a director.

Due to insurance laws, it has to be registered in the name and insured in the name of the person riding/using/"keeping" the bike - the employee


Now for whatever reasons, the relationship between the company and the employee has broken down - he was sacked.

Employee does not wish to return the bike claiming that

He is the legal owner of the bike as it is registered in his name.

The registration document is no proof of ownership whatsover.



Now the V5 states that he is the legal keeper but the receipt for the bike was made out in the director's name. The payments are made via the company of which he is a director. There is no doubt that the company/director can prove ownership although there is no paperwork to state that the employee was using a company vehicle or one got on the company's behalf for him.

This (ex) employee is a bit of a dimlo as he has written to us informing us that he will not be returning the bike & this is what he has planned as "insurance" against getting the tin tack.

He has also stated that if the company "lift" the bike, then he will report it stolen - which I guess would have the effect of a) grief/paperwork from the police and b) is potentially an attempted fraud as the "keeper" of the bike would be attempting to benefit from the "loss"??

Is this enough for an "intention to deprive"?? Or does it still remain a civil matter?


The fact that the director can produce receipts for payment would go a long way in your favour in a case of disputed ownership. However - just being Devil's Advocate - you say the bike was bought as a reward, which sort of implies it was given him as a gift. What doesn't help is that it appears you're unable to produce any evidence that the bike was a company asset or used for company business.

His threats to report the matter to the police though, is actually a two-edged sword - he has no proof of legal ownership, and you're just as entitled to report the theft to the police as he is... in fact I would say more so, on the facts you've supplied. You could if you wish try reporting it as a theft to the police, but I think you'd be lucky to find them willing to take this on, they'd be far more likely to refer you to your civil remedies, but you could give it a go. Disputed ownership cases like this are a real can of worms unless it's very clear cut, and I couldn't see CPS going ahead with it anyway.





The company would prefer to have this resolved ASAP because of loss of amenity etc. The employee was sacked for gross misconduct as well as being useless at his job.

Any advice/pointers gratefully received & yes lessons have been learnt by the directors...

email as per profile or PM or on here :D

Well you don't need me to tell you you've done it all wrong really.. sorry I can't be more help, he sounds like a cheeky beggar. I'd be tempted to say you could repossess the bike, notifying the police of your intentions, and let him do the suing, but it's the 'gift' thing that concerns me the most, and if he convinced a court that it was in fact a gift, you'd end up losing out.

Hope it works out OK.

[Kris]

I agree that the pivotal thing here concernes the "gift".

If as you say the bike was purchased specifically for the employee & presented to him as a personal reward for the work that he has done then I would have thought that when the bike was given to him the "ownership" of the bike passed to him.

One interesting point though is that you say payments are being made on the bike so presumably it's on HP, in which case from what I recall the ownership of the bike remains with the finance company until the last payment is made so technically neither the company or the individual owns it.

Either way its a civil matter regarding legal title to the goods so the feds wouldnt be interested (we get the same type of thing in the Insurance when we have to "recover" stolen cars from "innocent purchasers")

[LB]

The V5 won't state he is the owner - The last one I looked at somewhere on there it actually says something along the lines of "the registered keeper is not necessarily the legal owner ".

[Puff The Magic Wagon!]

Thanks folks


It's not a gift. The intention was to raise the value of his renumveration package by providing a bike for his SDP & 2/from work use and for that of other employees (ME!) in the interestes of the company business. It was always called "The Company Bike" & the question of his actually ever finally owning it was never raised nor expected. The insurance was in his name with myself as a named driver.

[Paul G]

Slightly off topic BUT

if this was to "raise the value of his renumveration package" and to provide "travel to and from work" from his home then this is a benefit in kind. Was this properly declared to IR and the appropriate tax paid? Of not there could be further repercussions.

[Puff The Magic Wagon!]

The appropriate P60 will be raised...

[Puff The Magic Wagon!]

As it has turned out...


The bike was being repaired after someone ran up the back of it. It was meant to have been given back last saturday but wasn't...

I know where the bike is & if the garage isn't open today, then it'll have a large van + driver sitting outside it @ 08:00 on Tuesday - with of course the receipt for the bike showing ownership...

:baa: