Local Parking attendants (westminster) Long first post alert

[VinnyP!]

:fluffle: Apologies for the length of this

If you could be in custody for what you wanted to do I'd be typing this from a cell. I try to keep myself to myself I am not a trouble maker.

There I was happy as Larry dancing through covent garden when I saw 3 guys loading a truck (Parked on a single yellow line and causing no obstruction and no one passed in the 20000 hours I was standing there discussing the matter with the heroic traffic warden) from a building site with rubble: they were posing for a picture taken by a Westminster Council Traffic warden with their ticket. I am not joking they were posing and being friendly. I heard them say can't we load up, he replied yes but our rules are more that 20 minutes and you are not loading quickly enough. I usually have little sympathy after all I am a B4st4r0 police officer but it seemed odd. This was a small tipper truck nearly full and 3 people clearly actively loading and sweating profusely (not a govt contract), so I intervened (huge mistake). This was the conversation (condensed by a long long time)

"Hi did you say that even though they are loading you are ticketing them"?

"Yes" (as the conversation went on it became clear his english was not great but yes he had off pat)

"Why"

"It's none of your business"

"I know, but humour me if they are loading and its lawful for them to do so why ticket them?"

"I am doing my job they can appeal if they are not happy"

"Look if they are parked legally why ticket them?"

"We allow 20 minutes to load after 11.00am in Westminster"

"But they are actively loading?"

"Yes"

"So despite the guidlines, they are not parked illegally?"

"Yes"

"So why issue the ticket"?

"They can appeal"

"But why should they have to?"

"Its my job to give out tickets if they are not happy they should appeal"

This called for drastic action so i dusted off my warrant card and showed it to him, (god I look so young in the picture and is Robert Peel's signature worth anything on e-bay)

This really imnpressed him so he said

"Yes"

"Look he's parked legally so withdraw the ticket you are not being fair"

"Yes" ... "But I have issued the ticket he has to appeal"

"Not only is he loading but like most of the lines around Westminster there are no T marks at the end of the yellow line so he can park here anyway"
"Yes" ... "If he appeals"

"Please use your radio to call your supervisor" we must be able to sort this out

"No it doesn't work" (I was not entirely sure of the veracity of this statement since whilst I was there I heard "Rassie" successfully negotiate brown sauce with his sausage in a roll)

"Does your supervisor have a phone number?"

"Yes"

"Can I call him?"

"My number is on the ticket, all they have to do is appeal"

"Look, OK, supposing you take my details and I dispense them to park here then surely everyone is happy and you can cancel the ticket?"

"No" ... "they have to appeal"

"Please Can I speak to anyone who can help"

"Yes"

"Hooray, who?"

"All the details are on the ticket they have to appeal"

To my shame at this point I lost the will to live and left. I gave my details to the workmen (who were great and grateful for my efforts) and the warden whose details I have but after 4 attempts to spell my rank and name I am not entirely sure has it spelt correctly.

So my questions to people who know these things,

1) If they are actively loading are they limited to 20 minutes if all the sign says is "Except for loading"
2) Is it still the case that Yellow lines have to be terminated with a T to be valid?
3) Can I ... and get a sympathetic jury?

[Piippy]

''YES If you appeal!'' :p

Seriously.... I really sympathise with you, had a very similar situation (not in westminster) and found all common sense had disappeared out the window. :mad: I have no advice ( as usually tends to be the case for me on this forum :rolleyes: ) but I read your post thoroughly and wish you luck with your crusade xx Pippster

[Hoon Devil]

Sounds like bollards to me...

1) The traffic regulation order should set any limits, but a single yellow line allows for loading unless there is also a loading ban. All of this (including any time limit for loading) should be stated on an 'adjacent' plate. The only yellow lines that do not require a plate are double yellows, but a loading restriction with them still would. 'Except for loading' does not imply a time limit. Maybe the world is different in Westminster. Covent Garden certainly is.

2) It depends who you ask... but strictly speaking, yes.

3) Yes, but only if you appeal.

[kingston]

Dont they get a performance related bomus....

[VinnyP!]

If he did then he is worth at least a jelly baby and a sherbert dib dab a year. I fear they get a bonus based on the tickets issued but I remember reading they were to phase this out.

[cyd]

I dont know the answers to any of these questions but I will give you a big :fluffle: (it could have been more exciting but this is the grown up bit :D) for being a very nice person

[Masked Marauder]

Dont they get a performance related bomus....

Yes.

And it could be coming soon to a city near you.

[Masked Marauder]

Several London boroughs do this, we have had tickets put on vehicles that have been unloading for 5 minutes with the driver on the tail-lift. They ticket everything.

Their attitude is that they get a bonus for issuing the tickets, if you don't like it you can appeal. We have a filing cabinet drawer full of folders appealing tickets.

And if you are a courier taking a packet from a van and running it into a business then things are even worse:

http://www.tnt.com/country/en_gb/about/pressoffice/current/parking.html

[XDC]

Bloody pathetic Vinny!! Good effort mate, but I suspect the simple answer is he's got a quota of tickets to issue and that's all anyone cares about, whether they get squashed on appeal or not. :daft:

[7db]

Good for you Vinny! I regularly load in London. I get ticketed a lot. I have yet to pay one -- all turned over on appeal. The annoying thing is the charge the outsourced parking claims handling company charges us (£50) to pass on the ticket (in the most recent example where it wasn't affixed).

1. The Highway code quotes the 20 mins restriction for loading -- commercial loading can include paperwork as well as well as active loading. Otherwise, 20 mins is all you can have. I'm unclear on whether you can move one inch and continute for another 20 mins.

2. The tight definitions were a real loophole when you had appeal to a court and coulrt argue that the signs were not in TSRGD. This is no longer the case in London, where cases are heard by independent adjudicators who are reputed to be a little less sticklers for the exact letter of the law than the courts. The 't' on the end of the line being a classic.

3. I'd be a witness to say that the chap fell over into the traffic of his own accord. Warden *that*, mofo...

[18wheeler]

well done mate,glad too see some people still have the balls too speak up!

[Smiffyz]

We're about to get a private firm to issue tickets in my neck of the woods, when a ticket goes to the appeal panel is that the end of it if the appeal was lost? or are there grounds to appeal to a magistrate?

At the moment the Police are issuing them (rarely) and by the look on their faces it's not the best job for a trained Officer to be doing.

[wazza]

Vinney, how can you debate with a ticket machine... a real jobsworth. I think i would have said,,,No Offence.. I as an officer in Uniform have given permission for them to do the job, therefore your ticket is improper, Hmmm is this ticket man now obstructing an officer in the execution of his duty?? I would possibly have taken the ticket... endorced it with a nice phrase or two, in relation to incorrect and darn right jobsworth, signed it and gave it back to the ticket man. See the ticket has been endorced and you can submit it to your boss that POLICE have authorised the parking and the ticket has been cancelled. If he then made jump up and down noises... consider OBSTRUCTION and arrest him...LOL telling him when he gets to custody " He had the right to appeal"

[Halski]

Well done Vinny.

Your point is so valid - is is a pyrric victory if you win on an appeal - although you have won you have lost (if you value a day of your time at more than £30 or whatever the ticket costs).

Why SHOULD you appeal?

[7db]

Tickets in Westminster are £100, reduced to £50 if you cough up in 14 days.