Does The 10% Rule Still Apply?

[impne]

I may be a bit old and this may have gone a long time ago but you used to have a 10% descrepency for car speedo or radar gun.

A number of people in my area have got tickets in the last year for doing 31mph in a 30mph zone I think this is a bit harsh and shows that this sort of prosecution is just a way of making money ( only my opinion).

Fair enough if your doing over the limit but 1mph

[wazza]

Acpo guidelines are 10% plus 2. But stress they are only guidelines.. some forces are not complying by the looks of it. What area are you talking about?

[firefly]

A number of people in my area have got tickets in the last year for doing 31mph in a 30mph zone
Are you sure? :rolling: Sorry, but I don't think this is true. Unless you can provide evidence to the contrary I think you're relying on hearsay.

The lowest substantiated speed I've heard of in a 30mph zone is 34mph. I challenge you to provide the evidence that shuts me up...:nods:

[impne]

I work for large utility company for the north east of england and in my office based in Middlesbrough 1 person has been given a sp30 for 31mph and 3 people for 32mph. The 3 that had been travelling at 32 were on A66 when road works were taking place passed the Middlesbrough football ground. Total caught in building over the 10 month roadwork period is approx 20, some were doing over 40mph, there were signs so nothing you can say to that.

The person caught at 31mph was tarvelling along the A172 Marton Road in Middlesbrough near jct Park Rd South. This position is used quite regulary and they are very visable when holding the radar gun.

The van that was used on the a66 was mostly parked behind the end of a bridge that the workmen were working on behind building materials and on a downhill stretch from bridge (this was 60mph but because of the roadworks was reduced to 30mph for approx 10 months).

I don't know what evidance I can give but a local paper (may be the Gazette) ran an artical which said in 1 day alone they caught enough speeders to have brought in £200,000 in fines.

I must stress I have not seen this as I don't come from that area but only work there. A chap I sit next to got his ticket on the A66 for going 35mph past this van and when he went to pay at the Middlesbrough police station he had to queue for 30 minutes just to pay.

[wazza]

when he went to pay at the Middlesbrough police station he had to queue for 30 minutes just to pay.

err another irregularity... you DONT pay at police stations

[impne]

I'm sure it was police station, I payed mine there but this was 10 years ago.

I'm middle aged and not just throwing a load of bull at this forum just asking question and making a point that this area is handing out tickets for the smallest of things.

If you think this is a cock and bull story phone the local paper, sorry if you think I'm making this up but I am not and the people who have been caught are mainly engineers and managers of this company not yts or young lads in moddified nova's.

I will ask him today what the building was called and ask to see if he still has his ticket with a name of who took it.

[wazza]

No No No I am sorry please dont get me wrong. I am not doubting you, but what I am saying is it does not seem to ring true... Speeding fines are not paid at Police stations, and to my knwledge never have, well certainly not in TVP... Speeding fines are paid directly to the Fixed penalty ticket office, then the payment is processed together with your licence that you would have previously taken to and handed in at a police station.

I really cant say very much more on this subject as I have never heard of speeding tickets for such a low speed... 10% +2 mph has as far as I am concerned been the only accepted way...... But I have heard of lower speed thresholds having been mentioned in the media, but not common practice by Police forces to do this.

It sounds to me as if you need to take this matter up with the speed safer roads partnership for that area, as this sounds very odd to me.

[impne]

Yes sorry it was me not listening to work colleague. I assumed it was police station (not having paid one of these for approx 10-12years) but it was the court house. Confusion is that in my town the police station and court house is as one building so the part you would pay the fine I would call the police station but is the court house.

I've just been told by one of my colleagues that has a ticket for 32mph in 30mph zone, that a few years ago on the same road he was coming from 40mph zone into 30mph zone and started to slow down, by the time he went passed the 30mph sign he was doing 33mph and a police car was 20 yards up the raod with camera out and clocked him at 33mph and he received a ticket:confused:

To be honest it just seems to be this town as we are north east based and non of the engineers tend to get tickets from any other area.

[wazza]

Hmmmm I would make contact with the Head of traffic for that area and ask him why his officers dont comply with the Acpo guidelines.. I would be to embarrassed to issue a ticket for that sort of speed. I could not live with myself. That is outragious.

[cochapman]

At risk of raising a long dead thread...

My Advanced Driving Instructor claims one of his fellow observers has been caught (and done) by the speed cameras on the A303 at Folly Bottom (new services near Amesbury) at 74mph.

Obviously, this is now third hand and I haven't seen any evidence, but I suspect an Advance Driving Instructor is unlikely to embelish the story, particulalry as there was a Traffic Policeman with us!!

[7db]

Not the old Folly Bottom camera...

[Plodd]

I hadn't seen this thread before but I do believe Lancs do prosecute for 1mph over the limit. I also heard that up to 34 in a 30 you do get the option of the driver improvement scheme.

[noyourrights]

Not the old Folly Bottom camera...
wasn't there a mass refund of fines taken through that particular camera



but I do believe Lancs do prosecute for 1mph over the limit.
don't mention Lancs SCP they have just admitted that serious injuries/fatalities have risen by 360% yes 360% at one of thie camera locations since its installation
they also stated that statistics were being misunderstood as the actual number of collisions had dropped obviously life and limb is less important than collateral damage

[queenjane]

wasn't there a politically-instigated (ie Blairism) zero tolerance policy on motorways some time back?

which got knocked on the head due to incredible statistics?


I applaud the idea of 'education' for those caught exceeding the speed limit, up to a certain percentage.
It is an ideal opportunity to get a whole spectrum of drivers away from commonly-held misconceptions regarding driving.

It should be compulsory to attend 'school' for anybody caught exceeding the limit......with proper instruction, handled correctly, drivers would be able to come out honestly feeling the benefit.

However, improperly handled, such a scheme would do nothing but lose credibility.

this sort of idea, ie, bringing drivers 'up to speed' (sorry) is part of a package the DSA were/are trying to put in place, on an EU directive, tied in with proposed 5 yearly renewals for all Vocational Licences (CAt C, D etc).....which also involved an assessment drive.

not a truly practical proposition for car drivers, (logistics nightmare??)....but when an opportunity presents itself, ie caught speeding, etc, it ought to be taken??

also extended to older drivers, many of whom know little of current legislation, etc??
(I'm an older driver.....being born in the reign of the last King!)

given what has been posted above...and also referring to the 'roadworks' thread....the observations regarding motorists slowing to a speed substantially below the posted limit, seems to prove some justification for that action.
how much does one trust one's speedo?

especially after some major manufacturers were found to be fitting speedos which UNDER-READ at 30-40mph speeds?

in that respect, I'm all in favour of a large bright light on the dashboard, illuminating when my speed approaches 30, or 40 or whatever......I'm sure many drivers would rather observe outside the vehicle, than be focussed on the speedo, which is what has happened too often?

my '39 Morgan 4/4 has a chronometric speedo...which moves up and down in jerks....telling me what speed I HAVE been doing.....

[Mattyboy101]

I do have sympathy for those caught speeding, touch wood I have a clean license so far, but to be done in a 30mph zone by a Gatso I have to be going a good 36/37mph on the speedo (i.e. enough to know you were over rather than just wavering around the limit).

My Speedo will read 30 when my GPS reads 27/28, and at 60 my GPS will read 55/56.

[7db]

especially after some major manufacturers were found to be fitting speedos which UNDER-READ at 30-40mph speeds?

...

my '39 Morgan 4/4 has a chronometric speedo...which moves up and down in jerks....telling me what speed I HAVE been doing.....

Both sound contrary to CUR

[LB]

I hadn't seen this thread before but I do believe Lancs do prosecute for 1mph over the limit. I also heard that up to 34 in a 30 you do get the option of the driver improvement scheme.

From the FAQ (I know because I researched most of it :p )



Lancashire:
ACPO - YES
Photo - No Mention
Driver Improvement - At 36mph and 37mph a speeding motorist is offered the opportunity to go on a Speed Awareness Course instead of incurring penalty points and a fine. Lancashire is currently one of the few places in the UK that provides this option. It is only when motorists are caught at 36mph that they are automatically prosecuted.

[cochapman]

wasn't there a mass refund of fines taken through that particular camera

That was the road works cameras - as I understand it, the camera vans were still out taking pictures (and doing people), even though the road work and temp speed limit (50mph) signs had been removed.

They have now installed two gatso's - one on each carriageway. It was one of these that caught the Advanced Driving Observer - as explained to me, she was in the outside lane overtaking a lorry that decided to speed up to get a "run up" at the hill (east bound) - flash, flash - £60 and 3 points...and what do points make?!!? :confused:

[queenjane]

Both sound contrary to CUR

why?

speedo accuracy , last time I looked, was in the order of plus or minus 10% at any speed.


hence at 30, the speedo could be innacurate toeither 33 or 27 mph..?
( which is where all this 10% stuff stems from)
I think Ford and Vauxhall had speedos reading 30, when the car was actually doing 32 or 33mph?

Not a lot of good for a zero tolerance area?

as for the chronometric speedo, these were commonplace fitment prior to WW2 and after......and esp[ecially with rev counters.....characterised by the needle actually going up and down in jerks, with a slight, but noticeable time delay.

as for CU regs, for any car/bike vehicle, the regs as they stood at the time of manufacture /registration are the one's that apply.
as far as I can recall, the only CU reg which is applied retrospectively, was the compulsory fitment of windscreen washers to vehicles equipped with windscreen wipers...although doubtless someone will find other obscurities?

as a result, my Morgan can legally (although inadvisably in today's motoringly-ignorant world) have but one brakelight, and no indicators..and because it has a folding windscreen, wipers are an option not required by law!

neither does it have seatbelts....or collapseable steering column..( I remember the TV and Pathe ads regarding the dangers of drivers hitting things head on and getting 'speared!')

My Cannon special's speedo is but a Halford's bike speedo.(amazingly, can read up to 120mph....for a push bike???).

all perfectly legal.....it works off the same kit one fits to the bikes front wheel, except the magnet and detector are fitted to brackets on the O/S front wheel.

all very accurate, unbelievably.


it is far too easy for modern motorists to assume things were always thus,many unknowledgeable motorists asking if the Cannon is road legal......quite what they thought I was doing driving it about I don't know..they didn't bother to follow that one through, obviously.
(It was registered on a Q plate in 1996...and complies with all CU regs as at that point......arranging split circuit braking on a car with essentially pre-WW2 running gear was an interesting exercise...thank you Skoda!
It's (police-issued) chassis number is almost as long as the car is wide...and the constable's stamps made no impression on the chassis tubes......he gave up, and I made one from a softer ally plate, affixed with rivets..)

all very painless...all very pre-SVA as well.:laff:

[XDC]

I hadn't seen this thread before but I do believe Lancs do prosecute for 1mph over the limit. I also heard that up to 34 in a 30 you do get the option of the driver improvement scheme.

That's the most depressing thing I've read ths week. :(

[queenjane]

do any of the route finding services supply routes that avoid Lancashire, wiltshire, and any other hot-spot forces?


if I go out of Humberside I'll only drive the Volvo...very hard to get done in that.....mind, they all think its a lorry anyway....

[Deep]

why?

speedo accuracy , last time I looked, was in the order of plus or minus 10% at any speed.



I confess to being no expert on C&U, but I was of the understang that a speedo can over-read by up to 10%, but must not under-read. Is this not the case then? That would be quite worrying - especially if you had a car with a 10% under-reading speedo and went through one of the cameras above which didn't comply with ACPO guidelines - you could be bang on the nose on the speedo and still get prosecuted! OUCH!

I've driven quite a few cars (including Vauxhalls and Fords) with a portable GPS, and the speedo's on all of them have over-read to some degree (except Honda, which always seem to be bang on...). I've never seen an under-reading speedo... but that doesn't mean it doesn't happen..! ;-)

[queenjane]

the issue arose because of the above rejection-of-ACPO setups....the press got hold of the issue, did some investigating....checking on speedos in mass-market models (unlikely to have gPS fitted..or even aircon)....to find the above results.

now this was 2 or 3 years ago...so makers could have got their acts together...but......


what torubles me, i that we as consumers can be expected to have a certian 'blind faith' in the trustworthyness of makers, and that they will not drop us all 'in it'.

however, as I see it, the law painfully places the ultimate responsibility for the vehicle upon the driver.

no doubt, in the US, makers are more 'careful' due to their litigious society?

also, exactly HOW much faith can we place in modern manufacturing techniques, and their accuracy?
( this no doubt also applies to the ongoing issue the police are facing, with the potential susceptibility to error of their technology..as recently reported?)

have I worded that carefully enough, mods, so's not to step on toes....I confess to being no expert, as I haven't recently been caught speeding?

don't want to mention 'vested interests' either.....

I escaped from Roswell

[7db]

QJ is right that CUR needs to be complied with at point of manufacture, and subsequent CURs are usually littered with "on vehicles produced before blah blah blah date" exceptions throughout the regs. Makes heavy reading. and since my coffee is already cold, I'm not going to trawl through the regs on speedos, but my recollection is that they have very very generous overreading tolerances and zero underreading tolerances.

Whilst speeding is strict liability, and the driver is held to blame (perhaps except for circs out of hs control - ...refers to online RTRA...) I don't think that construction is.

Anyway - caveat driver. Does the Morgan go above 30 even with the windscreen off? :D

[Deep]

....but my recollection is that they have very very generous overreading tolerances and zero underreading tolerances....

I thought that was the case... it would certainly make sense - After all, a C&U regulation that "allowed" the speedo to read less that actual speed would be stark raving barking bonkers mad imo...

[7db]

I can't find my copy of CUR anywhere - so that's a second cup of cold coffee and still no regs. :(

[queenjane]

Anyway - caveat driver. Does the Morgan go above 30 even with the windscreen off?
it used to.....top speed 70mph, except downhill....folding the windscreen has little effect, unless I open my mouth......
gearbox has a back-to-front gate.....4 speed, with 1st where one normally expects 3rd, 2nd where 4th normally lived, 3rd and 4th where 1st and 2nd live......require concentration , especially setting off.

all crash gears.....

gear lever travel twixt 3rd and 4th very, very short...almost sequential!

since these are the 2 main driving gears, then handling the gearbox is a delight.
( the gearbox actually sits right next to one's left thigh...literally...so I keep it a bit clean...there is no cover..never was...the shaft from the engine to the box is in a tube, and so is the propshaft....which is also inside the car....in fact everything is inside the car....the driver's seat annoys me as it wont go back far enough for me to get in and out gracefully....the off-side rear spring sits right behind, limiting movement!)

roadholding is excellent.....damping is adjustable at the rear ( friction shox)..no shox at front, as they were optional...and they're very short, so are hard to come by....I have a pair of cab suspension shox off a Ford Cargo, I think...ready to fit if need be...

mot tester has to get used to sprung ball joints on the steering!


the engine is 1300cc's....made by Standard, unique to the Morgans, being an OHV unit..developed from a sidevalve motor. It replaced the original Coventry Climax units.....power is .......well....there?

however, it is the grand-daddy of the Standard Triumph engine range....its lineage traced right down to the dolomite Sprint engine.

however,,Morgan aren't some bunch of retro, living-in -the-past motor manufacturer....even taking my old car....the factory actually tried out a Ford flathead V8 motor in the same chassis......same brakes.....liked its performance....got stymied by Ford who wouldn't import their american V8 motor......pity......Morgan had to wait another 35 years or so before the next V8!

[7db]

It replaced the original Coventry Climax units.....power is .......well....there?

I still get a grin every time I hear the name of that old Morgan - I wonder if they threw some other names around the boardroom - like the Nuneaton Knee-Trembler, or the Dudley Dangler...

[queenjane]

I still get a grin every time I hear the name of that old Morgan - I wonder if they threw some other names around the boardroom - like the Nuneaton Knee-Trembler, or the Dudley Dangler...


ha ha morgans' never had 'names'..it was the engine maker's....and a fireman's delight!

then there is that indigenous New Zealand car maker..the 'Duzgo?'