Working time directive v tacho question...

[channa]

The reason for the question is for my own sanity more than anything, but I hope I am correct.

I did a 7.5 tonne job today for a very well known furniture company , delivering 3 piece suites with a mate.

I started shift at 7. oo am ...and it was 8.15 when we left the warehouse, and first drop was 5 mins which took just shy of an hour...12 mins drive then another 15 mins drop time. etc.

Anyway I was told tonight I had violated tacho rules....I dont think I have.

I was told I should have taken 45 mins total break before 1 pm.( adamently as it happens)

My understanding is that a on a 7.00 am start NO LATER than 1.00 pm I need to take a 30 mins break. this is WTD regulations.....Had I driven for 4.5 hours I would need to then take 45 mins break.

Because the morning was broken, up until 1.00 pm the wtd takes precedence over the tacho rules and providing an additional 15 mins was taken after 4.5 hours driving,all is legal but at 1 oclock I was no where near a violation of tacho rules.

Please tell me I am not going mad and my interpretation more to the point is correct.

Channa

[darkstar]

I'm sorry - had a bad day and drinking aproppriatly so may be stupidly wrong...

BUT - I was under the assumption that you drive=work you handball=work - You are driving so any extra work is covered as if you was driving. (I think)

But this is the guy who failed his class 2. Three times in a row.

I hope this helps.

[IanW]

I am not a tacho examiner, but I have worked with the Commercial Vehicle Unit on one occasion, and also someone on Traffic who knows a hell of a lot about this.

From my recollection you need to take a 45 minute break after 4.5 hours, or a 15 minute and then a 30 minute break later but before the 4.5 hours expires, and that 4.5 hours time would include 'Other Work' so in your case that would be unloading/delivering so if you started at 7am I would say that you should have taken your break by 11:30 actually. Also obviously as you know you can drive 9 hours a day (in general, i know there are exceptions but i am not going to write all about that)

The definition of a 'Break' if I can remember what I was told is -

a period in which time a driver may not carry out any driving or other work and is used exclusively for recuperation (may not be word for word perfect)

[wazza]

I think our budding traffic Guru ian has got it about right. tacho laws are complicated but need to be known if you drive, as getting stopped by Police or VOSA can prove expensive if you get it wrong, and if you have an accident, tacho offences can help to convict for poor driving.

[Arryace]

if you started 'Work' at 7am and at 1pm you had driven for less than a total of 4.5 hours then yes only a 30 minute break is required under working time regulations.

if then you continue to drive and reach a total of 4.5 hours driving the second part of your break must be 30 mins because if you split the break from driving the second part must be of 30 mins. duration.

simply put.

working time can consist of either driving or other work or a mixture of both

Driving is just driving.

so 6 hours after the start of the shift a 30 min break must be taken.

lets not go into POA

[channa]

I think our budding traffic Guru ian has got it about right. tacho laws are complicated but need to be known if you drive, as getting stopped by Police or VOSA can prove expensive if you get it wrong, and if you have an accident, tacho offences can help to convict for poor driving.

Precisely why I am asking the question.

I would partly agree, with Ian's statement. just for a moment forget other work etc....( that is an interesting point.)

After 4.5 hours driving 45 minutes rest ( no other work feet up and a sandwich etc read the paper ) must be taken NOT 45 minues within that 4.5 hours. Another 4.5 hours can then be driven. another 45 minutes rest, and an additional hour can be driven twice I believe in a 6 day period ( this bit I could be wrong and isnt relevant in any of my driving.)

There is then the Working time directive which from my understanding states that after a 6 hour period on duty , 30 minutes rest (no other work ) must be taken.

There is a significant implication here, IMHO and an area I am aware companies and drivers have been caught out.

There are required rest periods with both regimes so let me give an example.

A driver starts shift at 7. 00 am and the tacho card (digital) is inserted in to the apparatus and the truck is being loaded.and By default the cross hammers indicate other work is being undertaken.

The driver leaves depot at 9.00. and decides to drive 4.5 hours then take his 45 minutes break . He has commited an offence. He commenced duty at 7.00 so no later than 13.00 under WTD he needs to take 30 mins break. so has exceeded his hours by 45 mins ....

I am labouring the point I appreciate but one has to be aware of wtd and driving hours.

It is my understanding that the wtd is concerned with the total 'activity' before a 30 mins break and again my understanding is the time limit is 6 hours.

Driving hours are different and the emphasis is on the word driving.

If you are suggesting that driving and other work all contribute towards the 4.5 hours driving permitted before a rest period I would appreciate you directing me to the relevant linky legislation.
( that is my impression from Ians And Wazzas post )

If my understanding is incorrect, I would like to establish where my thought process is at fault and I am sure you chaps appreciate my intent is honourable.

Channa

[channa]

if you started 'Work' at 7am and at 1pm you had driven for less than a total of 4.5 hours then yes only a 30 minute break is required under working time regulations.

if then you continue to drive and reach a total of 4.5 hours driving the second part of your break must be 30 mins because if you split the break from driving the second part must be of 30 mins. duration.

simply put.

working time can consist of either driving or other work or a mixture of both

Driving is just driving.

so 6 hours after the start of the shift a 30 min break must be taken.

lets not go into POA

I have deliberately avoided POA, My understand or the way I treat it is other work It isnt rest you can be out the stat gates any minute ( simplistic I know )

It seems you are in agreement with me re WTD and hours driven less than 4.5 hours within that 6 hour period.

Where you have slightly confused me is stating that the second part of the driving break must be 30 mins. If a break of 15 mins is required to make up the 45 mins after 4.5 hours driving and 30 has already been taken wtd...Only 15 i srequired to make up the total of 45 in respect of 4.5 hours driving.

BTW irrelevant I can see where the 15 15 15 is impractical with the two rules but your comment interests me ..

Channa

[IanW]

Channa,

Have a read of Page 13 of this -

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/freight/ro...hoursgoods.pdf

[IanW]

After 4.5 hours driving 45 minutes rest ( no other work feet up and a sandwich etc read the paper ) must be taken NOT 45 minues within that 4.5 hours. Another 4.5 hours can then be driven. another 45 minutes rest, and an additional hour can be driven twice I believe in a 6 day period ( this bit I could be wrong and isnt relevant in any of my driving.)

You can drive UPTO 4.5 Hours before your 45 Minute break MUST be taken, sorry i missed a word from my post above.

[channa]

Ian you are a star, I googled all about hours to refresh my memory before taking on this job and the link you referred me to didnt appear in any search.

Naturally the reason I asked the question is because I want to do it right. It seems I need to cross my fingers VOSA and your colleagues show no interest in my activity for the next 30 days.

TBH it is all a minefield but alas I try my best to encompass the spirit, I shall read the whole link you posted, and hopefully get a grasp of it all,.....or give it up and disappear into the wildnerss as a cake decorator.

On an aside I had an interesting situation today in Lincoln. I fwiw have reservations re sat navs , At the end of the day they dont have a driving licence.But I found myself in a particular pickle.

Address was punched in to a sat nav in an area totally alien to me, and sure enough it took me there.......A left turn One way street and not a chance of progressing due to parked cars. I hasten to add not parked illegally.

Fortunately a pub and funeral directors car park was adjacent and I pulled up in the pub courtyard..( A better bet I thought considering the funeral director could well be doing business)

To allievate I had not fubared, I left my mate walked back to the main road and there is /was no mention of the road being one way before you commit.

You really dont want to know how I got my self out the mire,

All of a sudden cake decorating sounds an attractive career move !!!

Channa

[Masked Marauder]

The main misconception in the industry at the moment is about the WTD breaks.

You must not work for more than 6 hours before having a break. The regulations don't say how long the break should be, but do say that a break must be of a duration of at least 15 minutes. They then go on to say that you must have had a break, or breaks, totaling 30 minutes before having completed 9 hours work.

The general interpretation of this is that once you have done six hours work (and work is everything except breaks or POA) you must have a break of no less than 15 minutes.


My personal opinion is that the WTD was a missed opportunity, it should have been made compulsory that you have at least a 45 minute break after 6 hours work, full stop.

[GDC]

I did a 7.5 tonne job today for a very well known furniture company , delivering 3 piece suites with a mate.

I started shift at 7. oo am ...and it was 8.15 when we left the warehouse, and first drop was 5 mins which took just shy of an hour...12 mins drive then another 15 mins drop time. etc.

Anyway I was told tonight I had violated tacho rules....I dont think I have.

Tacho rules don't apply to this type of work. A daily log needs to be kept splitting the hours spent actually driving and other work.

WTD applies and a 30 min break needs to be takem after 4 hrs

[channa]

Tacho rules don't apply to this type of work. A daily log needs to be kept splitting the hours spent actually driving and other work.

WTD applies and a 30 min break needs to be takem after 4 hrs

TBH GDC the first time I have heard this, What is your reference source ?

cheers

Channa

[Arryace]

The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
Breaks
7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker's working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker's working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each..

Where you have slightly confused me is stating that the second part of the driving break must be 30 mins.

if you split your break from driving the second part of your break must be of at least 30 mins (introduced 1/4/07 iirc)

15 15 15 no longer permitted

[channa]

Re the wtd Arryace my intepretation exactly as to why I am curious re GDC's post. and source.

Channa

[Arryace]

Tacho rules don't apply to this type of work. A daily log needs to be kept splitting the hours spent actually driving and other work.
WTD applies and a 30 min break needs to be takem after 4 hrs

an interesting interpretation of the regulations

Vehicles used for the carriage of goods by road and with a maximum permissible weight (including any
trailer or semi-trailer) of over 3.5 tonnes are in scope of the EU rules. ‘Carriage by road’ is defined as
any journey entirely or in part made on roads open to the public of a vehicle, laden or unladen, used
for the carriage of passengers or goods. ‘Off-road’ driving is in scope where it forms part of a journey
that also takes place on public roads. Journeys made that are entirely ‘off-road’ are out of scope of

the EU rules.

[Arryace]

(2) Where a mobile worker's working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

that time? if you read the regulation 'that time' refers to a 9 hour period so in fact as MM states you can work for 6 hours take a 15 min break but must have another 15 min break before you have worked 9 hours. 'interrupting that time'

because;
(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each..

[GDC]

TBH GDC the first time I have heard this, What is your reference source ?

Channa - This is how we have worked for more than 10 years without any issues. There have been numerous checks for weight etc and the odd accident and the records have always been in order.

Initially, this was set up by the Plant Dept guys who will know the regulations.

Tacho regs are in place to control those whose job is primarily driving i.e. long haul LGV drivers.

[channa]

I am sure the plant guys are an asset etc..but what is the reference source? Arryace has pretty much echoed my understanding, but your take is a touch far removed from ours.

Arryace has subsequently provided the 'rule book' which makes your interpretation even more interesting.

You havent with respect answered the original question ...I.e what makes you think wtd is related to 4 hours and furthermore the situation I have explained is exonerated from the use of tachographs ??

channa

[Arryace]

Channa - This is how we have worked for more than 10 years without any issues. There have been numerous checks for weight etc and the odd accident and the records have always been in order.

Initially, this was set up by the Plant Dept guys who will know the regulations.

Tacho regs are in place to control those whose job is primarily driving i.e. long haul LGV drivers.

if you are keeping logs then your type of work comes under domestic rules and the vehicles are not used for the commercial carraige of goods.
or you fall into one of the numerous exempt groups of which there are too many too list but feel free to chosse from the list HERE
but
the type of work Channa has described come under EU regs so he must use a tacho and abide by the relevant hours regs.

[Masked Marauder]

The Road Transport (Working Time) Regulations 2005
Breaks
7. - (1) No mobile worker shall work for more than six hours without a break.

(2) Where a mobile worker's working time exceeds six hours but does not exceed nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 30 minutes and interrupting that time.

(3) Where a mobile worker's working time exceeds nine hours, the worker shall be entitled to a break lasting at least 45 minutes and interrupting that period.

(4) Each break may be made up of separate periods of not less than 15 minutes each..

Yes, but if you take the first part of the break before you have worked 6 hours (for example after 5 hours 59 minutes) then you need only take a 15 minute break. Once you have exceeded 6 hours you fall into the 6 - 9 hours rules and must take a 30 minute break before you have worked 9 hours, but that 30 minute break can include the 15 minute break you took before the 6 hours was up. If you did not take a 15 minute break then immediately after 6 hours you must take the 30 minutes break 'en block'.

Confused yet? Who makes these rules up?

[VinnyP!]

I think we are mixing 2 things up. WTD is about the employer looking after the worker so it's what you are entitled to as a worker. If the employer won't let you have these then they can be in breach of the regulations.

The Tacho rules are more about stopping excessive work/hours by the driver of certain classes of vehicles so it's about the driver HAVING to take a break or they commit an offence. Of course a bullying employer could commit causing and permitting offences as well.

[Masked Marauder]

Vinny, you HAVE to take the working time directive breaks too, you can not 'opt out' of these as a mobile worker (driver).

[Arryace]

Confused yet? Who makes these rules up?

it's an absolute minefield which has been unnecessarily over complicated.

if our good feds need information they ask 'experts' yet a driver is supposed to know it inside out.

it's no good asking VOSA they replied to a request for information for LGV drivers with 'sorry but we only have information for HGV drivers'

[GDC]

if you are keeping logs then your type of work comes under domestic rules and the vehicles are not used for the commercial carraige of goods.
or you fall into one of the numerous exempt groups of which there are too many too list but feel free to chosse from the list HERE
but
the type of work Channa has described come under EU regs so he must use a tacho and abide by the relevant hours regs.

Yes, falls under section 3 of the Drivers Hours & Tachograph rules.

Driving for less than 4hrs/day and within a 30 mile radius of base requires no records to be kept. Some of our drivers exceed this (mainly on distance) so a log book is maintained.

To keep things consistent for everyone, all drivers complete the log books irrespective of time/distance travelled

[GDC]

I am sure the plant guys are an asset etc..but what is the reference source? Arryace has pretty much echoed my understanding, but your take is a touch far removed from ours.

Arryace has subsequently provided the 'rule book' which makes your interpretation even more interesting.

You havent with respect answered the original question ...I.e what makes you think wtd is related to 4 hours and furthermore the situation I have explained is exonerated from the use of tachographs ??

channa

This comes from the Rules for Drivers Hours & Tacho's. You drove for 4.5hrs and should therefore maintain a log book under these regs.

Under WTD everyone should must have a break after 4 hrs irrespective of the work carried out.

[Arryace]

well i'm intrigued
section 3 of what exactly?
i checked the REGULATION (EC) No 561/2006 OF THE EUROPEAN PARLIAMENT AND OF THE COUNCIL
and cannot see such an exemption unless your vehicle is powered by natural gas, liquid gas or electricity
i also had a look at Driver hours Tachograph
i not going to suggest i am any sort of expert with regards to 7.5 ton trucks and i'm all ways willing to learn something

Article 3
This Regulation shall not apply to carriage by road by:

(a) vehicles used for the carriage of passengers on regular
services where the route covered by the service in
question does not exceed 50 kilometres;
(b) vehicles with a maximum authorised speed not exceeding
40 kilometres per hour;
(c) vehicles owned or hired without a driver by the armed
services, civil defence services, fire services, and forces
responsible for maintaining public order when the
carriage is undertaken as a consequence of the tasks
assigned to these services and is under their control;
(d) vehicles, including vehicles used in the non-commercial
transport of humanitarian aid, used in emergencies or
rescue operations;
(e) specialised vehicles used for medical purposes;
(f) specialised breakdown vehicles operating within a
100 km radius of their base;
(g) vehicles undergoing road tests for technical development,
repair or maintenance purposes, and new or rebuilt
vehicles which have not yet been put into service;
(h) vehicles or combinations of vehicles with a maximum
permissible mass not exceeding 7,5 tonnes used for the
non-commercial carriage of goods;
(i) commercial vehicles, which have a historic status
according to the legislation of the Member State in
which they are being driven and which are used for the
non-commercial carriage of passengers or goods.

[IanW]

And in Channa's case he is carrying goods for commercial purposes, so needs to comply with Tacho rules.

[GDC]

well i'm intrigued
section 3 of what exactly?

It is within the Tacho regs but under a section for GB domestic drivers.

Channa's original take on things is quite right and no rules were broken in my view

[dodgy]

Yes, falls under section 3 of the Drivers Hours & Tachograph rules.

Driving for less than 4hrs/day and within a 30 mile radius of base requires no records to be kept. Some of our drivers exceed this (mainly on distance) so a log book is maintained.

To keep things consistent for everyone, all drivers complete the log books irrespective of time/distance travelled

if you are carrying for hire and reward you need to keep records and use a tacho regardless of distanceTo download VOSAs own publication on Drivers hours & Tachgraphs in a 2009 revised version:

http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/Transpor ... hicles.pdf